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Update on Yakir Aharonov's Back From The Future Interpretation of Orthodox QM

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    • Jack Sarfatti They do not require, it i.e. retrocausality is not necessary, it is sufficient. Invoking retrocausality does not contradict any orthodox quantum experiments. Retrocausality is a true Godel undecidable proposition within the too limited rules of the orthodox quantum theory game.
    • Destiny Matters Congratulations!!!
    • Gareth Lee Meredith And not to mention, Wheeler delayed choice experiment is experimental evidence for retrocausality.
    • Jack Sarfatti On Dec 20, 2012, at 11:01 PM, Ruth Elinor Kastner wrote:

      Jack, you'll need to say which argument you're talking about. If it's the claim in the abstract from the arxiv preprint I mentioned (http://arxiv.org/abs/1206.6224), yes, all the results
      are nic      ely predicted by ordinary qm and do not require 2-state formalism as 'the only 'reasonable resolution' as claimed by Aharonov et al in that abstract. In fact the alleged 'contradictions' that they claim need 'resolution' are spurious; under a standard qm analysis, which I've already provided, there are no special problems or contradictions that need 'resolving' by recourse to a different formulation.

      Jack: As I said. Yakir & Co only have an argument of sufficiency of the retrocausal interpretation in which psi* is a post-selected advanced destiny influence and psi is the pre-selected retarded history influence colliding as it were in the intermediate weak measurement. Since orthodox quantum theory is degenerate in this regard, i.e. admits a meta-Hilbert space of Godel undecidable Bohmian "informal languages" or interpretations, e.g.

      1) Copenhagen epistemological

      2) Bohm ontological

      3) Parallel Worlds (Tegmark Level 3)

      4) Cramer Transactional

      5) London-Wigner consciousness reduction --> Penrose Orch OR

      etc.

      Only strong signal nonlocality in Antony Valentini's sense can settle the issue.

      Libet --> Radin --> Bierman --> Bem

      I claim is clear evidence for the breakdown of orthodox quantum theory in living matter.

      Quantum theory is only limiting case of a more general post-quantum theory as special relativity was for general relativity.

      Ruth: So they are taking something that is perfectly sensible under standard qm and making it seem strange and obscure to create an apparent need for their formulation. There are no special problems with these experimental phenomena under a standard qm analysis. It all boils down to steering of quantum systems (by way of weak measurements) into tilted error states more likely to give certain 'strong' outcomes. So of course the strong outcomes are more likely to have come from the weakly measured states which lean toward those outcomes. It's just the shoe factory analogy: If Alice is known to have a high rate of defective shoe production on Saturdays (because she partied too hard the night before), if Bob gets a Saturday shipment, he's going to find that more of those shoes are defective. That doesn't indicate that Bob's identification of a particular defective shoe forces that shoe to retroactively have been (probably) made on a Saturday the week before. It just means that it's more likely to have been made on a Saturday. This is all ordinary statistical inference,
      no different conceptually from my inferring that in the past you interacted with your computer because I got an email from you. My getting that email did not retroactively influence you to have done something in the past.

      Neither do any of the fancy experiments referred to recently in the popular press require a 'back from the future' explanation.

      Jack: They do not require, it i.e. retrocausality is not necessary, it is sufficient. Invoking retrocausality does not contradict any orthodox quantum experiments. Retrocausality is a true Godel undecidable proposition within the too limited rules of the orthodox quantum theory game.

      Ruth: Rather than the 'back from the future' explanation being more 'elegant' or 'simpler' as 2-state vector proponents claim, it is tendentious and misleading since it's based on taking results perfectly consistent with standard qm and trying to argue that they require something beyond standard qm. They don't. Remember the shoe factory.

      Now if someone gets reliable statistically significant deviation from the Born Rule, that's a completely different matter: in that case, both standard qm and the 2-state formulation fail.

      Jack: I think the history-destiny picture naturally generalizes to include signal nonlocality - that's what John Cramer claims in his back from the future experiment and in Chapter 16 of Frontiers of Propulsion Science.

      ________________________________________
    • Jack Sarfatti From: jack [This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.]
      Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 1:16 AM
      To: Kafatos, Menas

      That's what I have been saying. However Ruth seems to think her argument refutes Yakir's It doesn't Difference in logic between a sufficient explanation and a      ...See More
      Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past
      phys.org
      Physicists of the group of Prof. Anton Zeilinger at the Institute for Quantum Optics and Quantum Information (IQOQI), the University of Vienna, and the Vienna Center for Quantum Science and Technology (VCQ) have, for the first time, demonstrated in an experiment that the decision whether two particl...
 
Back From The Future Post-Quantum Theory
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  • Jack Sarfatti I think Yakir only claims that real retrocausality is a sufficient consistent interpretation of orthodox quantum theory, but not a necessary condition. My claim, consistent with Antony Valentini's papers, is that the experimental presponse data from Libet -> Radin -> Bierman -> Bem is a violation of orthodox quantum theory's no-entanglement signaling "theorems". Therefore, that proves with a high degree of Baysean confidence in my opinion, that real retrocausality is a fact of nature and quantum theorists need to expand their boundaries if they are to remain intellectually honest.

    On Dec 20, 2012, at 4:32 PM, Ruth Elinor Kastner <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.> wrote:

    Ok Jack -- the only thing I question is holding up these experiments in the popular press as evidence of retrocausality -- they aren't.

    RK
    ________________________________________
    From: jack [This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.]
    Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 7:25 PM
    To: Ruth Elinor Kastner

    Subject: Re: I missed this. You?

    Sent from my iPad

    On Dec 20, 2012, at 3:11 PM, Ruth Elinor Kastner wrote:

    The presponse data is a separate issue from what's going on in the experiments referred to by CL.

    Agreed

    The retrocausal phenomenon is moot in orthodox qm
    Yakir agrees with that
    The presponse data is a violation of it
    So orthodox qm is not interesting for retrocausality
    What Yakir shows is that there is no contradiction
    It's like lifting a degeneracy in the meta Hilbert space of parallel qm interpretations

    I don't rule out that humans might be able to get around QM statistics and that there may be other physics out there, but my point is just that
    _these experiments do not contain that new physics_. These experiments are perfectly consistent with standard QM without explicit retrocausality.
    Therefore, of course they are also consistent with TI as an interpretation of standard QM. Yes in TI there are advanced states but these are sub-empirical; i.e.
    their existence cannot be revealed/confirmed by experiment- -- at least not by these experiments.

    On the other hand, Valentini's work predicts deviations from standard QM (i.e. Born Rule).

    That's my point.

    Only if there is deviation from the Born Rule is there truly
    new quantum physics in this sense. In terms of the Transactional Interpretation, deviation from the Born Rule would mean that there might be some way to directly influence _which_ transaction is actualized from a set of possible ones.

    Cramer say that in ch 16
    I prove it using entangled Glauber states

    Best
    Ruth
    ________________________________________
    From: jack [This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.]
    Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 5:59 PM
    To: Ruth Elinor Kastner

    Subject: Re: I missed this. You?

    Right I still have not had time to respond properly in depth
    But your critique noted
    Crucial test is presponse evidence u ignore
    Also Russ Targ's CIA RV SRI report
    John Cramer disagrees w you in ch 16 of exotic propulsion book
    I mean your not addressing issue that qm is limit of more general theory with entanglement signaling.

    Sent from my iPad

    On Dec 20, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Ruth Elinor Kastner wrote:

    I've seen a discussion elsewhere about these kinds of experiments. As soon as you detect a single particle (say Alice's), a one-particle Alice state is necessarily detected
    and actualized on Alice's side, even if nobody 'looked' at it (i.e. even if there is still epistemic uncertainty about what state was actualized) and that
    collapses the pair (both Alice's and Bob's particles) in that particular run into a particular state . Then the subsequent measurements you perform on Bob's particle
    will reflect the statistics of the state that was created via the detection of Alice's particle.

    In the experiments involving a superposition of the interferometer mirror in a 'which-slit' and 'both slits' configuration, detection of Alice's particle projects that combined system of Alice + Bob + IFM mirror into a particular state, and then detection of the mirror in a particular state further projects Bob's particle into a particular state corresponding to the mirror's detection, so of course Bob's particle is later detected with statistics reflecting those earlier detections.

    No explicit retrocausality is necessarily present in these kinds of experiments. The claims are usually overstated based on a conflation of any given individual run with the statistical analysis of sets of runs.

    RK
    ________________________________________
    From: jack [This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.]
    Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:37 PM
    To: Levit, Creon (ARC-P)

    Subject: Re: I missed this. You?

    I know about this and I think kim already has it posted on Stardrive

    Sent from my iPad

    On Dec 20, 2012, at 10:26 AM, "Levit, Creon (ARC-P)" wrote:

    http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.html#nRlv
    Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past
    phys.org
    Physicists of the group of Prof. Anton Zeilinger at the Institute for Quantum Op...See More